A Response to My New Brothers and Sisters

My conversion story weighs in at 14,000 words, and this follow-up is another 5,000. The outpouring of response has been so great that I felt I owed some further answers to all these lovely well-wishers, who are, after all, now my brothers and sisters in the family of God.

Since I posted the essay, less than three weeks ago, there have been over 250 replies (still coming in), and that is only directly on the essay itself. There have been multiple popular threads on Twitter, in effect launched by Megan Basham, everyone welcoming the new brother to the family—and who knows how many on Facebook and other social networks. There have been a bunch of YouTube videos, each filled with well-wishers. I was asked to do a lot of interviews, include ones by Sean McDowell and Allie Beth Stuckey; still more are in the pipeline. There were news stories from The Gospel Coalition, World, CBN, Christian Post, Relevant Magazine, the Discovery Institute, and quite a few others (including many in foreign languages; see the links among the replies to the essay, including some very interesting blog responses, most interestingly by Bethel McGrew. Maybe the most unexpected thing is that at least two preachers mentioned my conversion in their sermons and blogs.

I’ve been frequently asked: Was I surprised at the response?

No—that’s not strong enough. I was nonplussed, shocked, in profound consternation for days. I was not planning on spending February dealing with the aftermath.

I had told a friend who read an earlier version, on January 27, “It’s going to be ignored.” He answered, “Perhaps not. We shall see.” To which I responded, “I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure I’m right.” I thought so because the essay is very long, self-indulgent, and kind of geeky and philosophy-heavy. I thought only geeks would like it. But even my elderly mother liked it. (I am still tech support to her.) She told me that her prayers of many years had been answered.

For a while I just couldn’t understand why so many people would be interested. But people have explained, over and over: my story is familiar to them in many points, despite its quirks. Many told me (and everyone else) their stories, which were evidently heart-felt and quite varied. Over and over, some respondents told me that they too had wrestled with well-meaning skeptical doubts and basically gave up on Jesus, the Church, the Bible—the Christian faith—for years on end. And then they came back. In some cases, they joined the Lord’s family for the first time, despite life-long atheism. So many people said they appreciated what I thought would be, to them, boring little details.

They told me repeatedly that my story gave them great encouragement, so that they sent it to doubting friends and family members—for which I thank God. Will my work really help reconcile some of my fellow sinners with their loving creator? How wonderful. I suppose I hoped that, but I didn’t expect it. Sola Deo gloria. I guess the notion is that my story is effective as an explanation of how someone might come, through relatively “intellectual” means, to the faith. Well, I suppose it is that. I am just overjoyed to learn that this approach resonates as much as it apparently does today. Because, in that case, maybe I really can be of some use.

Anyway, I have not had time to answer to all the responses, certainly not individually. But I do owe at least a collective answer. I will begin with the topic most often commented on: my failure to attend church.

Post-conversion church-going

Many people read the section titled “Church?” carefully, and I feel I was unusually well understood by them. That in fact is something I feel enormously grateful and blessed by in this response: so many people now understood and sympathized with me on something that formerly was rather private and hidden from view. But, although the section did explain my reasons for not attending church (for now), it left some important things out.

I attended church a half-dozen times in 2020-22, at three different churches not very far from me. (I thought it was four, but I can’t locate the fourth.) Two were through-the-Bible teaching churches, and one was denominational. I enjoyed all the services, although my profound hearing loss posed difficulties catching everything that was said. In all three cases, the congregations were lovely, welcoming, but elderly. Though I was in my 50s, I was decidedly on the younger side. I found myself missing the traditional hymn-singing of my youth, with too much focus on newer songs. I also discovered that, although I liked close attention to Scripture, I was not that interested in mere exegesis. I actually did want more topical sermons. I mean explorations of doctrine centered around topics, focusing indeed on relevant Bible passages, but also inspiring the congregation to ever-greater sanctification. I had quite enough of Bible study throughout the week. For homilies, I greatly enjoy those of a certain Orthodox priest whose videos are constantly interspersed by “we must…we must…”. I find myself responding: yes, we must indeed. From a spiritual leader, I, at least, need moral inspiration. I just didn’t want it to be political, as it was in some cases, nor lightweight and driven by long personal anecdotes, as is very typical for most topical preaching. I have viewed many hours of local preachers, and these problems, more than any others are what keep me from attending.

But since 2023, I haven’t been to church. I explained in my essay why I decided to stay away. But I wasn’t clear enough about something. One of the biggest problems was, and is, not just that I might offend the pastor or congregation by moving churches; yes, that’s a concern, but I’m sure they’re used to that. Nor is the problem that I first want to be “doctrinally correct,” for no special reason. Rather, the problem is this. I worry that it would become news that I was attending a church of a certain denomination. What if people got excited about a long-time unbelieving co-founder of Wikipedia joining their denomination and church? I wish that wouldn’t matter, but I think it might. In that case, it could prove to be disheartening to them if I then left the denomination and proceeded to explain my theological reasons online. That could be deeply alienating, I think, to those who care about their doctrinal distinctives. I know I’m not that important, of course, but I would regret terribly if my departure undermined the pastor, even causing others to leave. I refuse to do that. As a student of the Bible and of theology, I want to support the men of God and the strength of the Church wholeheartedly. Before my essay came out, I saw some evidence that this might become an issue. And now, I suppose it would be even worse, because my story has been splashed across Christian news outlets for over a week. Do you see what I mean here?

In short, I have been writing and making videos about various theological issues. What if I end up publicly contradicting my new denominational home, when I could avoid that simply by prioritizing the questions that divide the denominations? I can’t guarantee that I would never change my mind, but at least I would avoid frivolous and early departures. When I have the time, between my day job and Bible study, I will prioritize answering the aforementioned divisive questions. Hopefully I will be able to narrow down the list (see the next section), confident that any future changes at least will not be frivolous and easily avoided.

In the meantime, I am conversing in very edifying ways on a daily basis with my now-active Bible study group. We have had to close it to new members—we got so many joiners, and I just don’t want to overwhelm the people already there. I know this is no substitute for church, but it’s part of the universal Church. So I hope it’ll do for a little longer, anyway. I’ll “get me to the church on time,” I reckon.

Denominations

Some respondents detected denominational tendencies in my essay, suggesting everything from Reformed Presbyterianism and Lutheranism to Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Others, not presuming to read my mind, nevertheless tried to press me into their denominations. I certainly appreciate the well-meaning advice here. But I can’t please everybody, that’s for sure.

Let me explain briefly, then, some (not all) of the things I like and dislike about various denominations. I don’t mean to alienate anyone or take sides as a partisan. I want my testimony to be a tool suitable for all denominations. So, in what follows, I am just explaining myself, since people talked so much about church-choosing. Maybe this will help people give me more focused advice.

I will not bore you with all my thoughts on denominations. I am being selective. But I worry that you will think the following is “reductive,” i.e., reducing complex traditions to a short list of items. These are merely illustrative high points and not at all complete analyses. Trust me, I know there is quite a bit more to say than I am sharing here.

First, I am sorry to disappoint my Catholic friends, but the chances of my ever becoming a follower of the Roman Catholic rite are vanishingly small. I disagree about the foundational matters of sola scriptura and sola fide (blog post forthcoming), to say nothing of the other solas. Its rigid and contrived defense of its doctrine by strained interpretations of Scripture and the early Church Fathers is frankly a source of irritation to me. Moreover, I think the Roman Magisterium, even on the rare occasions when it speaks ex cathedra, has been wrong about many things, such as the Immaculate Conception of Mary; hence, it does not speak infallibly when it claims to be doing so. I do not mean these remarks as a personal slight, but only an explanation of my position. (I don’t hate Mary! Honest!)

I find myself rather closer to conservative Orthodoxy, and I have enjoyed every minute interacting with and watching videos of Orthodox believers, including a priest I would count a friend. I admire the evidently deep commitment of Orthodox believers to holiness, and their warmth. What you read about in Dostoyevsky still seems to be found within this part of the Church. That said, having absorbed a careful and interesting book about how Orthodoxy is rooted in the “religion of the Apostles” and the first-century Church, I find myself decidedly unpersuaded that it is permitted to us, for example, to attempt to pray to dead saints; I know Orthodox believers deny that this is what Saul tried to do with Samuel, but I’m not sure I agree with them. I would have a hard time giving up sola scriptura, as Orthodoxy would expect me to. I might eventually come to differences over sola fide as well, but here I am less sure, due to the widespread confusion over the meaning of “faith” and Orthodoxy’s interesting understanding of what they call synergeia, or cooperation with grace.

Conservative Anglicanism (not terribly large in the U.S., but no matter) also seems like a strong possibility. As a relatively large-tent denomination, this might be a good home for me. I have learned quite a bit from Anglicans, maybe next most after Calvinists, but here I would be nervous about the influence of “Anglo-Catholicism,” including such things as praying to saints and undue adoration of Mary, as well as ongoing liberalization of the denomination, even within some dioceses of the ACNA.

I actually do rather like conservative Presbyterianism, except for the very thing that is perhaps most distinctive about it: the deterministic Calvinism stuff. I have no issues about signing onto a broadly correct confession, and I find I like what I know of the Westminster Confession quite a lot. Except TULIP—I’m pretty sure I disagree with every point in TULIP. Sorry, but I am not seeing these doctrines reflected in Scripture, and I see quite a bit of Scripture in considerable tension with them. I’ve also watched a lot of Leighton Flowers; what can I say? But I have not yet really carefully studied these issues. Could I change my mind? Conceivably. As a philosopher, though, I have relatively well-developed views about free will, and I’ve noticed an abundance of data in the Bible pointing to the essential importance of free will in theology. This is something arch-Calvinist John Frame himself more or less admits regarding compatibilist free will in his Systematic Theology.

Ditto, conservative Lutheranism: I like it quite a bit, except for the thing that is maybe the most distinctive thing about it among American Protestants, namely, sacramentalism. (This is the view that baptism and communion are “means of grace,” and required, for most believers, for salvation.) I would like to think that quibbles on this issue do not matter that much, as I said earlier; but I am apprised that Lutherans would disagree that they are quibbles. I know that they distinguish their view from Catholic sacramentalism, rejecting the idea of ex opere operato (grace imparted by the act alone). I do think the ordinances of baptism and communion can be nearly as strong as you like, even if I am breaking one of these, in that case, for now. But I am not convinced that they are required for salvation, according to Scripture. This is highly debatable; there are strong “proof texts” on both sides. (Have fun comparing John 3:5, Mark 16:16, and Acts 2:38 with Luke 23:43, Ephesians 2:8-9, and 1 Corinthians 1:17.) I’m also chary about the “real presence” of the body and blood of Christ in the Lord’s Supper; I am inclined to think of these as deeply important symbols we use to remember his sacrifice for us.

I have some good associations with conservative Baptists. I am only slightly inclined toward believers’ baptism at this point, but the strong presence of “Free Will” Baptists in the overall movement and the stand on the “ordinance” view of baptism and communion seem to be decided points in their favor, for me now. But some Baptists, like it or not, have the reputation of being hostile to deep, probing questioning. Now, I know this does not apply to people at Baptist seminaries, many Baptist pastors, and some congregations. But some of the Baptist people in the pews wouldn’t take kindly to a character like me piping up too much; I’m not sure I’d be a good cultural fit in some Baptist congregations. But I am told the Baptist movement is very broad and deep. One other problem is the historical and, to a certain extent, continuing prevalence of dispensationalism. For now, insofar as I understand it, I take the classic and historical view that the Church will fulfill the promises made to Israel, which will indeed be fulfilled. The Gentiles have been grafted into the single tree, and we Christians are all, whether Gentile or Jew, subjects of the true Israel, which is one and the same as the Kingdom of God. Some Baptists broadly agree with this, yet Baptists still make up the single biggest denominational home of Christian Zionism, which seems opposed to this credo. This could present a challenge, but not at all Baptist congregations, which do vary.

The last really big denominational family is, broadly speaking, Methodist, and started by John Wesley. In the 19th century, the Wesleyan/Holiness movement branched off. Of this family, the largest branches are still called “Methodist.” While most of Methodism is quite liberal today, the broader family has conservative denominations in the form of the Wesleyan Church and the Church of the Nazarene, as well as the newly-launched Global Methodist Church. Methodism is ultimately an offshoot of Anglicanism and prioritizes sanctification much more than other Protestant movements—and in this regard, resembles Orthodoxy. My understanding is that conservatives have been fighting a losing battle against liberalizing tendencies within the branches started by Wesley for over a hundred years (though, in the beginning, it was quite orthodox in its doctrine). This apparently remains an issue even within the conservative branches as well, but again, there are exceptions, of course.

Other movements and smaller denominations have their own issues, in my eyes, at this point. I’ve considered Calvary Chapel, which seems about right on Calvinism vs. Arminianism, and on other issues; but the Baptist sort of tendency toward dispensationalism and some related views might ultimately put me at odds. The Church of Christ has an admirable program of wanting to return to the vision and standards of the very early Christian church. They also have a list of five things needed for salvation, which seems contrary to sola scriptura. I honestly never gave Pentecostal or charismatic denominations much consideration since I am neither a terribly emotional sort of person nor do I find a lot of convincing evidence of continuationism (but again, I am not very sure on this point). The Evangelical Free Church (with Scandinavian roots) seems like a good fit—it is explicitly “big-tent”—except that it has been reportedly moving in a decidedly liberal direction. As an Ohioan, I have a soft spot in my heart for the kindly and morally ambitious Mennonites. But I wonder about their commitment to hard theology; and I’m not about to give up technology; and believe it or not, there is a strong liberal and modernizing tendency in about half of this movement as well (perhaps an overreaction to their historical roots).

Again, this is not meant to be reductive; I remain sensitive to nuance, and torn.

My study program

(Skippable. You have been warned!)

Many people have recommended a wide variety of books, for which I am grateful. I am always looking for things to add to my list, or reasons to revise the priorities in my list. So, in case anyone really wanted to help in that regard, I thought I would share my study program, with the broad topics introduced in bold. Most of the following section is a wonkish sort of annotated bibliography.

Rather than discuss individual recommendations, I will describe my curriculum so far. I actually wrote about the very idea of theological self-study on, as it turns out, the last day of 2020, the year of my conversion. My aim was to study the sorts of things one learns in an M.Div. program, but on my own, at my own pace.

I wish I had more time to study, but there are only so many hours in a day, even if my days are busy. I tend to gravitate toward the classic, fundamental, and most influential—and the conservative or orthodox.

In 2022, I began taking long walks during which I “talked with God.” On the trip to and from these walks, and whenever else I am out driving by myself, I nearly always listen to theology. I use the Apple Siri “read text on page” when there is no audiobook available; it’s imperfect, but it works. It turns out that you can go through a lot of theology this way, if you do it day in, day out, for around five years. And maybe I take extra-long trips through the pretty Ohio countryside.

I almost never use these driving trips to do my daily Bible reading—that’s too important. I’m now wrapping up a fifth Bible reading. Beginning with the second time, I have almost always read the assignment twice per day, which has allowed me to get quite familiar with several different translations, including KJV, NKJV, NASB, and NIV, among others (including much of the “Easy-to-Read Version” when I went through the whole thing with my sons, as I did). I have always consulted secondary sources. The last two years I have gone through about 90% of the notes of the ESV Study Bible (this is hard work). In the past, I have used a variety of other commentaries, either on the Life Bible app or using BibleHub.com (or its identical app); my favorites there include, especially, Gill and Ellicott. Yes, these are all conservative and many older sources—you know, people who actually believe the Bible.

I have also studied some of what is called Bible introduction. Beginning in 2020 and repeated once or twice more after that, I went through basically all of the Bible Project videos. These I can recommend, and although the authors are a little unorthodox in some of their theology, they take efforts to be acceptable to a wide range of theological views. By this April, I will have gone through the entire, deeply inspirational David Pawson lecture series, Unlocking the Bible; I started listening to selected Pawson lectures in 2020, too. In more advanced introduction, I listened to Gundry’s Survey of the New Testament lectures. Then I tried to get into Carson and Moo’s very advanced Introduction to the New Testament, but decided it was above my level (at the time?), and opted for Tenney’s New Testament Survey. I will be finished with Daniel B. Wallace’s free, online, and academic New Testament: Introductions and Outlines this April. When it comes to Old Testament introduction, I have been much less diligent. My main exposure has been from the Bible Project and Pawson and reading brief introductions in Bibles. I started but need to finish Archer’s excellent Survey of Old Testament Introduction. I’ll be filling in this gap in this year, though.

As to commentaries, I have never gone through an entire commentary except on Genesis, on which I read all of Matthew Henry, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, and Josephus. I also read Swindoll’s studies of Abraham and Joseph. This was all part of a special study of Genesis. On an adviser’s recommendation, I also dove into related Biblical texts and archaeology, reading the relevant parts of Arnold and Beyer’s Readings from the Ancient Near East, Matthews and Benjamin’s Old Testament Parallels: Laws and Stories from the Ancient Near East, Kennedy’s Unearthing the Bible: 101 Archaeological Discoveries, and Provan et al.‘s Biblical History of Israel.

I wrote a lot of questions and answers about Genesis, and for each chapter consulted the corresponding commentaries, and sometimes others as well. This was my first exposure to really in-depth exegesis. I also gave the same treatment to Matthew 1-3, using the same resources (except Josephus, of course; but now adding ChatGPT’s feedback on my answers, and Ryle’s whole introductory Expository Thoughts on Matthew). All this exegetical work, which is extremely interesting to me, tapered off and ended because my answers were getting too long and I just had less and less time to spend.

In systematic theology, I’ve read all of Frame’s History of Western Philosophy and Theology, which is a bit misnamed as it views philosophy through a theological lens. It was interesting to see how a theologian treats philosophy. Then I went through the same author’s Systematic Theology, complete. It took a long time; it was worth it. It confirmed that I like Reformed theology, generally speaking, except, ironically, for the TULIP part (which is essential to Reformed Calvinism). I also read many chapters of Grudem’s Systematic Theology. I am now about two-thirds of the way through Allison’s excellent Historical Theology. Next time around, I will, of course, turn to another theological tradition.

In specialized theological topics, I read de Young’s Religion of the Apostles: Orthodox Christianity in the First Century; the McNall lecture series, The Mosaic of Atonement; and I would put Packer’s modern classic Knowing God here. Maybe some others. Early on (2021?), I read Montgomery’s The Theologian’s Craft, but doubt I properly appreciated it at the time; it is short so I must re-read it.

As to church history, I went through Shaw’s Christianity: The Biography: 2000 Years of Global History. I’m pretty sure I went through a lecture course at The Great Courses. I also read a fair few classics, including the Apostolic Fathers (twice), Eusebius’ Church History, Augustine’s Confessions, and bits and pieces of other ante-Nicene Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils. I am now listening through the City of God.

Another strong interest of mine is apologetics, philosophy of religion, and philosophical theology. I began by listening to Lewis’ classic Mere Christianity again. I say I listened to Lewis “again”: it seems I first bought and listened to it in 2011, but obviously it didn’t take. Then came Strobel’s The Case for Christ twice; it was so good. I read Anthony Flew’s There Is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind. This was interesting but ultimately disappointing, since he died a mere deist. I reminded myself of the content of a philosophy of religion course by listening through the solid Great Courses lectures by James Hall; it was all quite familiar, like riding a bicycle, but still useful. I got some basic introduction to the theology of miracles from books by Lewis and Metaxas, but need to do something more serious reading there. I wanted an intro to the debate over “creationism” and “intelligent design,” so I ended up reading Dembski’s Understanding Intelligent Design and then Behe’s Darwin’s Black Box, as well as half of Dawkins’ The Blind Watchmaker. I was surprised both at how plausible Dembski and Behe were, and at Dawkins’ utter failure to engage with their sorts of arguments. The latter in particular was a little weird to discover. I read Kierkegaard’s Fear and Trembling, because I had never done that before. Later, I—”heroically”, I suppose, that’s what it felt like—attempted to listen to Craig and Moreland’s mammoth and advanced Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology. I got almost halfway through but had to stop and put it off until I had time to slow down and read the words on the page; just listening, I couldn’t keep up with all the symbols and abbreviations. Then I picked up Craig’s Reasonable Faith, which was much more tractable for listening. I also read Davis’ excellent Introduction to Christian Philosophical Theology, a chapter of which inspired this essay.

A basic feature of any M.Div. program is hermeneutics, the theory of biblical interpretation. I found this extremely interesting. I started with Sproul’s Knowing Scripture, which is a good place to start, indeed. I then did Klein et al.‘s lecture series, Introduction to Biblical Interpretation. After that, on advice, I struggled through Carson’s Exegetical Fallacies, and most recently read Chou’s remarkably good Hermeneutics of the Bible Writers. This really opened my eyes to the beauties of intertextuality, something that anybody who has looked at enough Bible cross-references has noticed, but rarely with such consistent and inspiring profundity.

I have read parts of other works, and consulted reference works I won’t mention; I’m mostly just listing the ones I finished. I have also read 5 or 10 Christian novels. I love Pilgrim’s Progress, which I have read three times, and Dostoyevky’s Brothers Karamazov, among others.

As to my book in progress, I will add only that it is a steady discipline of mine now. I have done a little other background reading for the book, but mostly, the writing is informed by the above study and the knowledge I had gleaned before that. It is obvious to me that I need to do more focused background reading and library research before publishing the book. I appreciate all the encouragement I have received about the book, but I will not publish it until it’s in the shape I want it to be in.

As you can see, I’ve been busy reading many things, so I’m always happy to get more book and author recommendations. My self-assigned task thus far has been simply getting up to speed on basic Bible interpretation, theology, and exegetical skills. I won’t be stopping anytime soon.

Has my conversion been merely intellectual?

Another concern, always kindly expressed, is that, after all my cogitation and study, perhaps I still have no faith. Perhaps, some people suggested, I need to spend more time on more purely spiritual matters. I want to reassure these people.

First, I should admit, and I know this is important to many regular church-goers, that I have been missing all the spiritual benefits of attending church. I have mostly avoided not just face-to-face fellowship, but also corporate worship and singing; and I know the sacramentalists (and others, too) would say I am missing something deeply essential by not partaking of the Lord’s Supper. I hope this will change sooner rather than later.

This, however, is not the main thing that respondents were concerned about. They were especially worried that I might not have a keen faith, or even that, perhaps, I did not truly accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. But let me assure you that I truly do. Let me illustrate.

One of my disciplines is to attempt to pray seven times per day. The first, as I get ready for the day, is always the Lord’s Prayer. I often forget to do all seven prayers; maybe someone has an idea of how to maintain this discipline more consistently. But Paul wrote that we should “pray without ceasing,” and this is how I do my best to follow this injunction. I attempt to imagine what the Lord might say to me, in my daily circumstances, and I try to remember what the Bible says on related issues.

I cannot adequately express how useful it is to be increasingly familiar with the Bible for this purpose. The more we read, understand, and apply the Bible, the more vivid our notion of the character of God becomes. Those non-believers who maintain that the God of the Old Testament is some sort of brutal tyrant are merely revealing their own ignorance. If they made a better attempt to read and understand the text as its recipients understood it, they could not maintain their attitude. The better I know God, the better I understand why he is truly called sovereign, merciful, and loving.

The point is that in “my Christian walk,” as the phrase has it, I am intensely aware of God in my life. I regularly thank and praise him; I confess sins and repent of them; and I ask things of him for myself and for others. I also listen—having absorbed what I have of Scripture—for his answers. What it means to be Christian, perhaps most essentially, is to accept in a deep way that he is our Lord and Master. I certainly do accept that. In fact, despite my long history of methodological skepticism, I have not seriously doubted it since my conversion. For me, this is never a matter of mere intellectual assent; it is, rather, firm loyalty to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.


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Please do dive in (politely). I want your reactions!

56 responses to “A Response to My New Brothers and Sisters”

  1. […] Sanger’s identity recently changed from “skeptical philosopher” to Christian, Wikipedia’s identity remains the same as ever, according to a longtime conservative […]

  2. […] Sanger's identity recently changed from "skeptical philosopher" to Christian, Wikipedia's identity remains the same as ever, according to a longtime conservative critic's […]

  3. Michael Gatliff

    Larry,
    Thank you for this fascinating follow-up. Regarding concerns that your faith is primarily intellectual, you are an intellectual and our Father meets us where we are. But clearly He wants a deep emotional, heart attachment to us as well. Curt Thompson’s “Anatomy of the Soul” has been very helpful for in deepening my relationship with The Three.
    Also, you might check out the Wikipedia entry (unless they blocked you!) on Austin Farrer, British philosopher, theologian, Bible scholar and Anglican priest. He was close friends with both Lewis and Tolkien.

  4. Cathy Gleason

    As a life-long Lutheran, and now a member of the LC-MS, I feel the need to state that Lutherans do not consider baptism and Holy Communion to be necessary for salvation in the sense that a person cannot be saved without them. The thief on the cross is usually the first example given that baptism is not strictly necessary and of course there are others. When baptism is possible, it is something that should be done. As the Bible says, “Baptism now saves us.” It imparts saving grace, especially to babies, without the need for intellectual understanding.
    In the same way, Holy Communion is not strictly necessary, but extremely good and helpful to keep us united with Christ. Jesus said, do this in remembrance of me. He also said, this is my body, this is my blood, not just this will remind you of me. He told the Jews my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. He who feeds on me will live because of me. As the Old Testament priests ate of the sacrifices brought by the people, the priesthood of believers now eats of the sacrificed and risen Lamb of God. This is discussed at length in the book of Hebrews. Considering the intellectual path you have taken to the faith, these doctrines may be difficult for you. The Lutheran theologians and the Book of Concord can explain this more philosophically. But these are spiritual things, not intellectual ones. This could be why they are difficult for you. But God will help you with this issue, too.
    As for not attending church, it seems like some of your reservations are only serving the purpose of keeping you away. You don’t need to tell anyone about your famous background when you go to church. And you don’t need to share the information with the world about which church you attend until you are ready. Find a liturgical LC-MS church near you. Pastors are usually happy to answer questions. They just have limited time in which to do so. But they can also see things in you that you don’t see in yourself. If you have a bad experience with one, remember that it was just one person at one particular time. Who knows what the circumstances were that caused that pastor in your past to be unpastoral? Pastors are only men. They cannot always live up to being representatives of God. But through His grace, many often do. And some of them are even quite intellectual.
    God bless and guide you.

  5. Matthew C.

    Hi Larry!

    I’ve enjoyed following your conversion quite a bit. I came to Christ myself rather recently (Summer 2020), and I’ve found some parallels in our testimonies.

    I wanted to comment on two things:

    1.) You mention having a strong interest in Christian apologetics, and the books “The Case for Christ” and “Mere Christianity”. Another to add to this list would be Tim Keller’s “The Reason for God”. This book played a major role in my conversion and I’d be interested in your thoughts on it.

    2.) Responding to this passage: “Except TULIP—I’m pretty sure I disagree with every point in TULIP. Sorry, but I am not seeing these doctrines reflected in Scripture, and I see quite a bit of Scripture in considerable tension with them.”

    Being the thorough, well-researched man of faith you are, I’m certain you’ve read The Canons of Dort and its Biblical references cited in support each of TULIP’s the five points. (Link here for reference: https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm)

    Im curious, is it that you disagree that the cited Bible passages support TULIP? Or do you agree they support TULIP, but because there are other Biblical passages in tension with TULIP, we should disregard the passages that support it?

    If it’s the former, I suppose I’ll have to agree to disagree with you.

    If it’s the latter, consider this:

    When it comes to scripture, Christianity is an “all” system of belief— Not an “either or” system of belief.

    What I mean:

    There are Bible passages that tell us that salvation is achieved by believing in, and acting upon, the Gospel. Therefore, Christians must choose to believe and act upon the Gospel.

    The reaction of all Christians to these passages is, “Yes and Amen!”

    However, there are also Bible passages that explain that, because of the fall, man is incapable of seeking God (and thus, being saved) apart from God’s gracious gift of faith, which he gives only to those whom he hand selected before the foundation of the world, and who will persist in belief, without fail, to the end.

    Some Christians react to this second group of passages with, “Yes and Amen!”, while others will say it is somehow contradicted by the first group of passages, and therefore we should utilize the first group to refute the latter, appealing to the perceived rationality of the first group over the second (You seem to belong to this group, if I’m not mistaken based on your comments).

    This take is problematic, however— Because, our calling as Christians isn’t to accept the parts of scripture that make sense to us, then weaponize those passages against passages that do not make as much sense to us. As Paul states in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

    I emphasize that Timothy is talking here about *ALL* scripture— Not just “the parts that make sense to us”— Not just the “reasonable” or “rational” passages.

    Therefore, if we find scriptural passages that seem contradictory, our task as Christians is to “lean not on our own understanding” (Pro. 3:5-6), but to lean on the authority of He who breathed all scripture! That doesn’t mean we don’t wrestle or struggle with scripture— to the contrary, we should strive to understand it! Rather, it means that even if we can’t find a way to reconcile in our minds what God is telling us, we find a way to reconcile it within our hearts.

    For, it is in our hearts that we know God is infinitely wise and holy— That “his thoughts are not our thoughts, and his ways are not our ways” (Isaiah 55:8-9). If we truly believe this, it should make perfect sense to us that some of the things God wishes to share with us through scripture seem totally paradoxical to our minds, which, compared to his, are infinitely small and limited in understanding.

    This is a reality that brings discomfort to many Christians. For me? I am in awe with wonder and praise! How grateful I am that I don’t have to understand what God understands! How terrifying it would be if I did. To the contrary, all God asks is that I simply lean on his wisdom, trust him and love him!

    Praise be to God!

    I love how Dr. Jordan B. Cooper puts it:

    “We don’t have to take one set of scriptural passages, and use that one set to deny that the other set has any meaning, or reinterpret them to mean something they clearly don’t. We can actually hold to what all of scripture says very clearly without having to reinterpret certain texts to fit with what we think are the other predominating texts.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwgxbiUS9xY

    1. I will discuss this in more detail sometime, probably on this blog. The short answer is that many people read specific philosophical positions into the text, not realizing that there are other possible interpretations, interpretations that are, in fact, not only more coherent and plausible, but more consistent with the rest of the Bible. But this is a very very general sort of claim. In short, I defer to no one in my commitment to *analogia scripturae*.

      1. Matthew C.

        Thanks for the response!

        I appreciate the commitment to analogia scripturae. This commitment is exactly why I think we must contend with the parts of scripture that support TULIP.

        Let’s also remember that TULIP isn’t an independent philosophical position eisegetically loaded into scrupture. It was exegetically constructed *from* scripture.
        The plain text of scripture forces us to wrestle with the things it says about total depravity, unconditional election and so on…

        It’s also not like there’s just a tiny handful of TULIP-supporting passages and then “the rest” of scripture that conflicts with it, as if to say those passages that support TULIP are a super-minority. Even if they were, though, we still have to contend with them, because, they’re right there in the text.

        But I digress. My overarching point is that the parts of scripture that stress the importance of our actions— our “Freedom of Choice” (I hate the term “free will” for humans, as God is the only being who possesses this) are not in conflict with the parts of scripture from which TULIP was born.

        In other words, two things can be true at once:

        1.) God can ordain and decree every single human act that takes place for the sake of revealing his attributes, purposing it all for the ultimate good of those in Christ and for the glory of God, AND…

        2.) We humans can be fully responsible and culpable for those same human acts, deserving of God’s perfectly just punishment because, again, we are humans with freedom of choice.

        Believing there’s a contradiction here, I think, only reveals the fact that we can’t comprehend what it means to A.) Be omnicient and B.) Create beings with freedom of choice.

        Obviously, this is a deep rabbit hole (and a topic I enjoy!) but regardless of what side of this debate we each land on, I’m super encouraged to call you a brother in Christ! Congratulations on your conversion and I look forward to reading more of your ongoing journey in the faith. Blessings and peace.

  6. Rich Gaffin

    Dear Mr. Sanger,

    I join the many others in gratitude for God’s work in your life and for your public testimony of it. Numbers 6:24-26.

    Your analysis here of the various denominations is fascinating. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised that someone with your level of achievement is able to read as much as you have, but I am astounded at the volume and breadth of what you’ve covered!

    I am in the Reformed camp, so I will encourage you to keep reading there. Make sure you are familiar with the Dutch Calvinist tradition, in particular Herman Bavinck, who articulated an orthodox Reformed theology in response to the challenge of the Enlightenment and modernity.

    Just a point on TULIP. It is not just Calvinists that have the “problem” of predestination. Any Christian who holds that God is 1) creator and 2) omniscient has the same problem. If God makes us with foreknowledge of what we will do in any given situation, he is thereby predetermining what will happen. God’s decrees do not force us to do anything against our wills. Rather, we act of our own free will in the way that God has foreordained, because He created the nature/personality of which that will is an expression. (Also, have you read/heard any non-predestinarian interpretation of Romans 9 that is not incredibly strained?)

    Thank you again for this testimony. I will continue to read your posts with interest.

  7. As an ex-atheist who had to have a dramatic encounter with God Himself in order to believe, I too began my faith skeptical of TULIP. However, in recent years, I have been able to see reformed theology differently than what I misunderstood it to be, thanks in large part to R. C. Sproul’s What Is Reformed Thelogy? series. I highly recommend it to you and if you are still not swayed, fine, but I do suggest at least hearing the clarification from him.

  8. standard tulip calvinists will cherry pick the election verses to “prove” predestination..t wo caveats

    first of all Karl Barth IMO once and for all correctly re interpreted election not as our individual destiny but jesus as the elect one and our being chosen in him
    second i think the whole tenor of scripture points to our choices and their importance otherwise it’s just a game and a sham…

  9. Adam Palmer

    I will not try to convince you, but will suggest that you do as I did when I became a Christian. Study the beliefs of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. See if their theology stands up without contradiction to what the Bible says.

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